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01 September 2009 @ 02:49 pm
Tecosca Cormaic and Women  
From what I understand, there is a considerable misogynistic part to the original Tecosca Cormaic that seems to be omitted from online translations of the tecosc. Would anyone happen to know where I can find the full text of the Tecosca Cormaic that includes the omitted part about women? I am curious of what it has to say and would like to see for myself how/why it merits exclusion; it seems a breach of academic honesty and objectivity to alter an historical text because of language offensive to modern sensibilities. I am also curious as to whether it is known or not if the misogynistic diatribe in the tecosc is reflective of native attitudes or is a Christian influence.
Kym Lambert...or Saighsaigh_allaidh on September 2nd, 2009 03:59 am (UTC)
It appears, from a quick Googling, that while he seems to have the exact same version up that everyone else does, that Brendan Cathbad Myers found those in Kuno Meyer's translation and reused to post them himself...hence apparently others either took it from his posting or felt-likewise but didn't bother to explain. So he would be the one to ask, unless someone else has access to a hard copy of the complete translation (mine, I am pretty sure, are even more edited, not direct translations)...I think he has an LJ. Someone here might know him.

As for whether the attitudes predated Christianity...we just can't know. Such is the bane of my existence. ~;p
Brendan Myersnorthwestpass on September 2nd, 2009 07:11 pm (UTC)
Hi there,

Yes, I do have an LJ: it's called northwestpass. A friend drew my attention to this thread, and if you don't know I have posted my thoughts about it here.

Kym Lambert...or Saighsaigh_allaidh on September 3rd, 2009 06:42 am (UTC)
Hah! I actually figured that if I were right that you were here someone would know you and if not, well, someone would know you and email you. Hence my thought on bringing you up, in hopes you'd be lured over here to discuss this. My devious plot worked. *mineisanevillaugh*

I thought it was quite good that you, alone of the admittedly few, pages I checked out even bothered to mention that you did leave those lines out and why. I totally relate to the struggle with the mighty conundrum, but I don't think these conflicts can be just ignored. And I was happy you didn't do that. I think they need to be acknowledged as having existed and the reasons we don't follow them noted. As you did, which I hope was helpful to felmac3.

Thank you for responding. And nice to "meet" you. And now I return to my own conundrum. ~;)
.felmac3 on September 3rd, 2009 01:27 pm (UTC)
Hi Brendan,

I appreciate the response and the posting of the relevant excerpt from the text. I figured that the language would be pretty bad, but that exceeded what I was expecting. Yikes.

I have to agree with saigh_allaidh that as reconstructionists we just can't ignore these parts of history, and that we need to acknowledge them and give a thoughful explanation as to why such attitudes or conventions are not worthy of reconstruction or of application in a Celtic polytheist lifestyle.

As reconstructionist polytheists, one of our important goals is to revitalize or in some cases rebuild the insititutions fundamental to the practice of Celtic polytheisms within a modern context. In addition to being morally repugnant today, there is a consensus that misogyny isn't nor wasn't essential to honoring the dé ocus andé.
Kym Lambert...or Saighsaigh_allaidh on September 4th, 2009 02:11 am (UTC)
Hey, I just wanted to mention that I flipped through some of my books, I am really surprised Bitel didn't bring this up. I can see some of the others who have written on Irish women, as most have tended towards either contributing to the myth of "greater freedom and status" ...other than Condren who I was sure wouldn't because, although it may be true that this is not a Christian addition, it surely isn't good for her cause that once the Christians came women's status improved. But there is no mention...guess I'll have to throw it in myself. Thank you. ~;p